Mark Zoril and Jason Lynch demonstrate their PlanVision service and eMoney platform.
Hosted by the Tampa Bay and South Florida Bogleheads chapters. Recorded on June 22, 2021.
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Bogleheads® Chapter Series – PlanVision and eMoney demo
Alan: Welcome to the Bogleheads Chapter Series this episode was jointly hosted by the Tampa Bay and South Florida Chapters and recorded June 22, 2021. It features Mark Zoril and Jason Lynch demonstrating the PlanVision service and e-Money platform. Bogleheads are investors who follow John Bogle's investing philosophy for attaining financial independence. This recording is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice.
Welcome everybody to this joint meeting of the Tampa Bay and South Florida Bogleheads chapters. We're pleased to have Mark Zoril and Jason Lynch joining us again this time to demo their PlanVision service and the e-Money advisor platform. They were with us back in April for our joint meeting. At that time they presented a number of financial topics for consideration both before and during retirement as well as their perspectives on the future of technology in the financial advice sector.
This meeting is for informational purposes only, and to not be construed as personalized investing advice. I want to thank Miriam, the South Florida coordinator for assisting us this evening, and we will be taking questions throughout the presentation but please hold them until we have a break.
For brief background, Mark Zoril, who's the founder of PlanVision, around 2012 I believe, has 27 years of experience in the financial services industry. He started his career helping smaller companies establish employer-based retirement plans, and subsequently his efforts have evolved to primarily helping individuals plan and prepare for their financial futures.
Jason Lynch joined PlanVision in February 2020 after spending the last 18 years in private accounting, as well as 12 years in public accounting. Working with taxes for high net worth clients and their businesses, he's been indexing since the mid ‘90s and is a true boglehead having attended the national conference in 2016 and being a regular presenter at his local Michigan Bogleheads chapter. So without further ado I'll turn this over to Mark and Jason.
Mark Zoril: I'll provide an overview of PlanVision and our approach. And then we'll go into the e-Money program and I'll make some comments about how we use that and how it can be used as a tool for people to help plan for their--yeah, so that's just the front page of our website.
So our view is very much a boglehead type mentality that investors can have great portfolios, simple low-cost financial planning investment advice. Not only do we think that the financial services industry grossly over complicates investing so that people think they need their services, but also when it comes to financial planning. So we think that can be done very quickly and very efficiently if you're independent and you use technology well.
So that's a big part of how we go about what we do here at PlanVision and e-Money is a critical part of that. We use e-Money as basically our hub or client information, and they have a great client portal we'll go through. And also in our interactions with our clients we use Salesforce a lot. We have integrations built between a company called Alchemy and Salesforce so that their data flows into our system. It's not personal data, it's more their investing and guidance preferences.
We have clients in 50 states and then we work with over 100 nationalities, and I think it's gosh, it must be more, almost approaching 100 countries around the world. So a lot of what are called expatriates, and there probably are some people here even on the session that might end up wanting to move overseas later in life. We work with a lot of those folks to help them navigate those challenges.
And I should also mention that about two and a half years ago, as an advisor I reached out to Vanguard and spoke with the folks on their internationals, and in their international areas they believe to be their highest growth area. And what's happening is the message of this kind of investing index based investing, the boglehead philosophy is going around the world. In fact, our largest clientele out of the US is out of the UAF. We are promoted but we're very well known in the UAE through a boglehead group there the SimpyiFi boglehead community. So that's pretty cool.
So next screen. Yeah, so e-Money advisor is a system that we license as an advisory firm. It has a huge range of capability that's built into it. We're not even 3,500, I think, give or take. We've worked with far more than that. We have about 3,500 clients right now. There was a question here--.yeah so e-Money has a broad range of capability both in the platform, it's incredibly robust and powerful. A lot of the work we do on our side,clients can do some modeling on. Their site was acquired by Fidelity in 2015.
Important comments about e-Money. If the client is not the indie, you know the client is not archiving, we are the e-Money client. So we interface directly with them. Our clients cannot interface directly with e-Money. I hope to someday--I kind of joke with our clients about this--I hope to someday not actually have to interact with our clients. He's just using e-Money on his own.
And we're actually coming out with a new website later on this year where we hope to give a lot more of the tools to help our clients use e-Money more directly on their own. A lot more videos and explanations. But it is run by us, the advisors. We do the deep modeling, our clients can do some minimal modeling on their own.
So with that we'll go ahead and get into it. We're going to go through, just to remind you it is an advisor-based platform. As I went into, we'll go into the client functionality and then the advisor functionality as well. But we'll walk you through the screens that we go through with our clients and show some of the things that we help them accomplish.
This is the client portal. So this is what your screen looks like, and this will change over time as they come out with new--never mind, there may be some of our clients on the call, or people that have used e-Money as well. And this is just the basic client portal.They are updating this. I think you can get a little more information on this depending upon how you set up the portal for yourself. But this is the home screen for the client portal.
And then you go on to the next screen Jason. So this is the organizer. Now when our clients begin the process, they go to the organizer, and they go into the accounts section. I think you have a screen on that one too Jason. Yeah, you go into the account section and you can integrate all of your accounts into the platform.
Now you can do one of two ways. One is you can actually link them, which is what most of our clients do. That requires a user id and password. Or you can add them manually. If you link them, then they will be updated, for the most part on a regular basis. Some of these connections will break periodically. Some of the larger ones need to go through overhauls every once in a while where they'll just f have to clean them up. And then our clients have to go reconnect them but you can't have the data current and live.
What is interesting to see is if your data is live and you're one of our clients that logs in every day to see how close retirement's getting. If your data is live and the markets go down a lot, oh gosh your graphs will look quite a bit different. This happened in March of last year, because people that--oh it's not retirement, it was a year two years away--all of a sudden it looked pretty grim. So if you're connected you'll see that kind of activity in the reporting area.
But also if you do it manually, a lot of clients just prefer doing it manually. They're uncomfortable with the security, and they're very comfortable just doing it themselves. They can. It's pretty easy to log in and update your accounts here manually in the organizer.
Another tab in the organizer area is your income, expenses, and savings. A comment that I would make here is that for many of our clients, and I'll get into a few of the areas where you can do your own modeling, for many of our clients they will think to themselves, “You know, I do want to retire someday in the future but I’m not going to fully retire. I want to go work part time or make some income.” And in the annual income, that is an area that they can do their own modeling. They can pick different levels of income for different periods of time. They can also enter pensions in here. And then different salary structures. The savings you'll see down the bottom are just any sort of savings that represent annual contribution towards their future.
Okay, and here is another area where our clients can model the retirement date. You can go here and change your retirement data and go look at the reports. In this case this client has two children. They're putting in their future educational expenses. The educational planning program, any money, is quite robust. It's a module that's integrated, excuse me, the data is integrated. But there are separate college planning reports that are produced by e-Money. And also it can identify expenses by college, if you really want to get into some level of precision on your expenses for college expenses.
Now the major expenses you're seeing down there. That's a really critical component of any projection. These represent the expenses that you think you're going to have either if you're in retirement or if you're projecting out towards retirement. There's a lot of variation in this. You can pick expenses for certain periods of time, and that's fairly valuable. We believe most retirees are going to want to have graduated expenses during retirement. Maybe have a higher level from 55 to 65, maybe a lower level from 65 to 75 and so on. And you can do all of this on your own. If you really enjoy doing some additional modeling, here in the future goals area of the organizer.
So the vault. A lot of our clients will share their information with us. Some of us send basically all the documents they've ever had or accumulated their entire life to the vault. But it is secure, so you can upload documents there. Jason does a lot-- and he'll talk about this later--he does a lot of tax planning with our clients, and our clients will upload their 1099s or their tax forms. And he'll be able to use those by sharing them here.
So this is the reporting area. Now the reporting, e-Money produces a very broad array of reports. Now when we do presentations we concentrate on about three to four of them. But there's a lot if you want to pick through here, and you can also have your own favorites, as far as reports that you might want to see more frequently.
The ones that are the most valuable--and we'll see those a little bit on the side that we go through tonight--would be the cash flow report. That is far and away the best report for planning purposes.The balance sheet is useful if you're interested in seeing where your net worth is, and there's actually a few different balance sheets. You can look at your assets. We're going to go into the assets report as well. There's a really nice tax type report. Yeah, we will get into that about the Roth conversion planning.
And then there's a few more, actually if you see the little elevator shaft to the right of the drop down report, that goes down pretty far, very nice income tax reports. In fact Jason had a nice project with a client of ours where he really had to delve into depth on the different data points that were being produced by e-Money, but it was quite revealing for this client as far as how his income taxes were being calculated, and how was integrating his capital gains, his dividends, the whole nine yards into the program.
So yeah, I think that that's it. Now I'm going to use this as a break. We talked earlier about maybe a natural break. I finished going through the client portal ,so if there were any questions here, I think there was at least one question about Roth conversion planning and I'm going, Jason and I will go into that on the other side, and I can't recall if there are any other questions.
Alan: If I can interrupt. If anybody wishes to ask their question directly on the mic, please use the raised hand icon and you'll float to the top of the screen where we can see you will alternate that with questions submitted via the chat. Alrighty Barry.
Barry: Yeah, so I had a quick question about how you handle 401k plans which have Collective Investment Trusts where you're not going to have a public ticker, and might not be able to get some market data so easily.
Mark Zoril: Yeah. That's actually quite common. So let me just also rephrase that question for everyone else. The question is about a 401k plan. Collective Investment Trusts are not publicly traded. In fact, in many retirement plans they just brand these things and then you can't get a ticker on them. Anyway, even if they're like General Electrics 401k plan. They'll have their own S&P 500. What we can do, actually so our clients can do this, they can actually pick the asset class. If they can't do it then we can do it for them. So we can identify what is the correct asset class for that holding.
Alan: Somebody had a question about who enters the data.
Mark Zoril: Good question. I hadn't thought about doing that. When you subscribe for our service what we do is we send you the link from e-Money, and we send you this email that says, “Hey, you signed up for us. You're doing the homework, so you have to go to the website, watch the videos, and enter all the data.”
So I think when we roll out our $2,000 program then we'll start to take entry, about $189. That's going to be up to the clients to do the data entry. I have heard from many of our clients that they actually kind of like the process of going through this. It's a way for them to get their head around what their assets are, and kind of clean things up.
So now there were some more things in the chat here. I don't know if those are questions that I can answer.
Miriam: Whether you could add your own information to the program.
Mark Zoril: Is it, I'm sorry Miriam, is that a question?
Miriam: Yeah, that was one of the questions in the chat. Let me see, it was that clients, can they add their own information in terms of data entry.
Mark Zoril: Yes they can. They'll be able to log in their side, and see if they can, first of all they'll see if the connections are working, or not working. You'll get a message if they're broken. Or if you just want to update a manual you can do that anytime you know.
I mentioned that we have all these expats that we call fluid, we do financial plans for people that are getting paid in Korean won, in Japanese yen. I mean it's like 100 million dollars, 100 million yen, so they can do it. Then all of those folks do it manually. So they type in, they just update their stuff manually.
Miriam: There's a question, a couple questions. More reports, can the client run unassisted, is there a capability of they can run all of the reports that are shown here.
Jason Lynch: There's well over 200. Many of them don't apply. There's a lot of stock option reports. But clients can run all of the reports without contacting us.
Mark Zoril: Yeah what they'll do a lot of times, there's a button here, I don't even think it's showing up, it might be hidden, right here, where you can just do a web print that will print that. Now we'll get into this. We're going to get some of this stuff on the other side here, but we will produce a lot of reports on our side and we immediately drop them in the vault, if they're reports that we're doing.
Miriam: Can e-Money keep track of TIAA traditional if you link your TIAA account?
Mark Zoril: TIAA had a huge break, I think it was a year and a half ago, lasted for like four or five months. But now it's working again. But it will connect to the TIAA account. We can label it as a fixed account.
Miriam: Is there a capability of one-time changes?
Mark Zoril: Yes. This is a good question. Downsizing or a windfall, such as an inheritance. Yes, so in e-Money that's called a buy/sell transaction if you're downsizing. We sell the house and we buy a new one. That's programming we do on our side. Inheritances are handled quite effectively in e-Money in that we can introduce assets later in life. We can have them show up in the future. So that's a part of the robustness that e-Money has. That's kind of behind the scenes, that we do a lot of.
Miriam: If I were to recommend, is there anything I should tell, that he should get together, or will it tell them they need to do data.
Mark Zoril: Well yeah. They're going to have to enter their finances. Basically I mean if they want us to do a plan they'll want to enter their accounts and when they think they're going to retire and that kind of thing.
Miriam: I'm a Fidelity customer, have done some-- here's a question about a Fidelity customer and have done some e-Money simulation.
Mark Zoril: My understanding of this is that the version that's used by Fidelity is a more limited version than this one. I think that they want you to work out, reach out to their advisors and use them. That's all l I’m aware of.
[Reading] Would like more control and hope it's separate. Well you have control, the client portal and you can do some of the planning we just went through, to do the detailed planning …
Alan: Oh here's a follow-up question. I'm sorry, my question is whether there's anything needs to organize, you just got to have all your financial information if you're going to enter manually or even aggregate, you need to have all your account information and make sure you're organized in advance. But your process walks people through that, so they can do it over time?
Mark Zoril: It doesn't have to be necessarily all at once. Yeah we've had clients that have taken over a year to get around to getting their stuff in. Others will do it on like, an evening. So it can vary depending on how excited …
Miriam: Here's another question which asks, when you mentioned Mark, about doing a plan, you're doing a plan, what does that mean?
Mark Zoril: I think, well I guess I would answer, the way I would answer the question, is a plan, it depends on where people are coming from. But generally it might be an assessment of where you're at today, you know how healthy are you financially, what is your savings potential, is your insurance covered. We can do that pretty quickly if the data is entered.
But doing a plan, generally speaking, is a projection out to the future. hHw are you standing for your goal, which for virtually all of our clients is retirement planning. And then it just has a way, it naturally unfolds when you do a plan, is you would address what are the right places, you know what are the right accounts to be saving money. And should I do pre-tax, Roth or pre-tax or Roth in my 401k. Should I do Roth conversions? Where should I, where, what assets might I sell when I need to access the funds. That's all part of the plan. But it's just a general financial plan. And we certainly do discuss how we feel about our clients insurance needs. We'll provide comments on that.
Alan: I've got a question, Mark, if I can interject. I'm sure a lot of people are wondering for being such a low price point. What is the typical amount of time that you would spend with a client and how would they organize themselves over time to best use your service?
Mark Zoril: Well that second one, I'll have to think of an answer there. But I would say in the first year probably two to three hours, and that I normally have with all of our clients we have a 50-minute full planning session, and we can cover most of the details of their plan. And that's where, when I mentioned earlier I think that the financial services industry over complicates financial planning. With a tool like this, it's getting easier and we can do that on a more timely basis.
So anyways. But there's upfront work they need to do, a Jason or Christian to get the plan clean. You have a meeting with me, and then there may be some follow-up work. Jason has had, depending upon our client’s complexity, he's had multiple follow-up sessions with clients. So some clients can take more time. Other clients, frankly it's really simple. There's not a lot of chit chat in their situation. But I would say probably an hour and a half to three hours the first year. Maybe, I don't know, a half an hour going forward every year. Some people have more questions than others. What was your second question, Alan, I’m sorry.
Alan: Well based on how to prioritize, I guess. From my perspective as a fairly new client, as well I tried to focus on a few key questions that I had. And I would, I figured I would follow up with less lower priority things down the road. Because obviously there's a limited amount of time that we can spend face-to-face virtually on this.
Mark Zoril: Well I guess the way that we leave it with our clients when we do plans with them is that they can simply reach out to us anytime they have questions or needs. And they set up a session with us. We almost--I mean I can think of maybe, I've been doing this for quite a while now, the high volume of clients, maybe less than five clients that just kept on coming back and back with more and more questions. And, of course, in any client base you're going to have more and more, you're going to have some of that. But most of our clients seem to, they kind of get that this is not a thing where you need to sit down with us every quarter and go over stuff. So they seem to be able to figure out the questions that make the most sense for their situation. Not sure if I'm adept, will be answering the question.
Alan: But that's good. Let me, there's a couple more chat questions that have come in. I'll go ahead and pick up some of these. One of them, let's see. Somebody's asking if PlanVision can link to some of the newer brokerages such as Wealthfront or M1 Finance.
Mark Zoril: I would think so. But well, Wealthfront, I think so. M1 no, and Robinhood no. And what we've been told by e-Money is they don't want to connect with e-Money, right. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what we've been told.
Alan: Yeah, but folks could also manually enter in their holdings, and also can financial plans be tailored to the specific needs of unmarried couples, or people with disabilities, or would you say those concerns are too specifically complex for a high volume business like yours.
Mark Zoril: Well the unmarried couples, if you're just talking about different tax planning, the system will handle that perfectly fine. We have a lot of clients that are not married, filed separately. We do have several clients, Jason has interacted with clients that have children that have disabilities. We don't want to pretend that we can help them in the advanced planning needs of that area, but we can certainly help them do financial planning, even though our business is high volume.
Man, we get into some details with our clients. So we can go pretty far. I don't think you're going to--I think if you were to find a financial advisory firm that's specialized in families with children of disabilities then they would be better suited to meet your trust needs--and that kind of thing, that's just something we're not aware of. But when it comes to actual planning, we can really go into detail.
Alan: Right. There's a good question here also. What type of individual or planning questions would not be a good fit for your company.
Mark Zoril: So well. People--I don't think they're going to, anybody on this call--but people that think that e-Money will tell them how their life is going to unfold financially the next four years. And I have, we've had, clients, like it's not a match. And I will get some of those from the FIRE community, not that many, but they want to know if saving let's say $300 a month or $310 is like what is the exact dollar amount I need to save to get there.
So if there's a level, and I think they would actually, I don't even think they're a match for many other advisors, but depending on how much, how precise they want to be in their planning, they may not be a good match. Yeah if they want to visit with us every two months or so just update their plan, or go over it in depth, they're not going to be a good match.
Now there's another, I mean I don't know how, maybe just these software engineers out there. But those people that want to really do it themselves. They want to run the plan. They're not going to, they're going to end up being deceptive. I just had a guy bite yesterday. He sent me an email saying,”Well Mark, how far can I say look, if you really think you're going to be all playing, you're just going to be frustrated with this program, because it's a great program, but we will do the detailed planning for you, so is it, yes, is it possible to start with manual, and yeah you can do that for sure. Does Jason do any CAT [Certified Accounting Technician]?” Enough, no we don't. Rejection, no thank you.
Alan: You mentioned a Christian, and that's another assistant, you have an associate who walks through with the client to make sure that e-Money has been properly filled out with the information you need. So that's an important first step really in massaging the data and making it all presentable and thorough.
Mark Zoril: Yeah. Thanks Alan. So the process is you buy the service. You load all your data and then you submit this checklist. And the checklist is really a tool for us and for you to track how you're coming along. But then once you submit the checklist, that's telling us you think you've entered as much as you can with e-Money, and we certainly don't expect it to be perfect. And then you have a session with Christian. He cleans it up. And Jason actually has these sessions too. I used to do them, but since we've grown, and then it's relatively clean by the time it gets to me.
Alan: So I think that that is all of the questions. Maybe any further questions at this point. If not, we'll proceed.
Mark Zoril: Okay. So this is the advisor side of the platform. Now when we have sessions with our clients this is where we work. We just show this. These sessions are very interactive, we go back and forth, and I'll ask the clients questions. They can interject with changes, but this is how we work from, so this is what this portal looks--the portal does lay out differently over here-- than it does on the advisor.
One thing I should mention. I don't know if it's obvious or not, but I mean where I see this whole thing going in the long run is that these kinds of programs, e-Money and maybe who knows what's going to come along next, are going to get easier and easier for the layperson to use. You know, where I mean I view PlanVision as being a bit of an intermediary right now between the information that helps the client better understand their life and e-Money. So we provide guidance and comments on it, but you know it'd be pretty slick at some point down the road where the client just has access to this. They hire us for a few dollars and we just provide some insights on it and then they get on with their life.
So anyways. So this is what the overview screen looks like on our side. You can go on to the next screen, Jason. So we work off two tabs with our clients: the facts tab and the reports tab. And the facts are just your circumstances. So we start there. We confirm everything, date of birth, now the retirement age, that's I ask people now is that-- well someone's asking here. Yeah we charge $189 for the first year,and then $8 each month after that, if you renew--the retirement age. We do ask our clients is that when you want to retire, or when you think you have to retire, or did you just use that as a marker. So we use that as a good way to get started. They can enter their children in here. And then if they have any other family or whatever they want to do.
Next slide. So that was the basic, I'm sorry, that was the basic Facts. Now we're in the advanced Facts. And this is just the facts with a bit more detail. So at this point what we'll do is we'll go from kind of area to area, confirming the client's information.
So you want to see what's next. Jason, yeah. So now we're in the planning area, and you can see we've got scenarios. This is for Frankie and Joanna Miller. Scenarios we run on our side and here's the way it works. And we'll do, I'll do planning with clients right on the spot with them. You know we don't really have a canned presentation, we're just kind of going over it with them.
Anyways in this case for this couple, what we did is we ran three alternative scenarios. What if they delayed retirement in Social Security? What if they retired 65, did some part-time consulting? And then Roth conversions. Those would be relatively standard type scenarios. Pretty good examples here for the sample client.
But what we do is we go into this screen. We open one of these up. We go into them and it keeps all the base facts the same. And then we'll just start to change them, and so I’ll manipulate these things right, and rewrite with our clients. And then we'll go look at the output and we'll do side by side comparisons between not delaying retirement, Social Security income. And then delaying. These are drop downs that you can do to do side-by-side comparisons.
So now we've jumped into the reporting area. So we saw earlier how some of the reports view on your side, and so yeah, there's a lot of reports here. We don't go through all the ones that we use. The cash flow report, which is at the top there, that's a very popular one. And you can see this report here is showing. That graph there on the right is displaying how your money would unfold over time. Now in this case, if the client's goal was to live to 90 and then almost run out of money and die. Then they're pretty successful because that's what's going to happen in their plan.
So now what you can't see is all the data right below this. Oh there it is. so these are all the data points that go into that graph. And so I'll walk people through this so they understand the numbers of that graph. And we will provide context and interpretation on these numbers. You know, what risks they have, what's the likelihood of success. On the right hand side you can see their total portfolio assets. That's the chart above: 1.6, 1.7, 1.8. Yep, it's growing until retirement.
And then once they retire, now they're spending their assets. Now we use rates of return in this of 5% pre-retirement, 3% post. Which most people would agree are pretty conservative numbers, but people can use whatever numbers they want, if they want us to update them.
Anyways, we have their income on the left-hand side. That thing called income flows. That's their income from their work. Then they stop working and there's a gap in time. And those might be good years to do Roth conversions. The plan distributions is the third column. For most people those are just going to be the RMDs, required minimum distributions. For some people that have an inherited IRA, they may pop up there. Or if they have a deferred comp plan that they're going to get distributions from.
Now the total expenses column, which is three columns to the right, the number that matters there is the number below the blue line. That's the amount of money you think you're going to spend as a retiree. That is your targeted expense and you can see how it's changing over time. So we talk through these factoids with our clients. And each one of those columns is a hyperlink you can open up, and we might provide more explanation on that. So the cash flow report is the most valuable report that we'll use to answer the broader question of whether or not I'm going to run out of money.
Go on to the next screen. This is also a useful report, total assets. And the total portfolio assets is what somebody may live off of. And you can see that actually down there--- Jason, you'll see if you go down a little bit to the right, yeah that's a little bit back to your left there you go--right now the black one, yeah right there, that's the same number in the cash flow report that we're using to show how they spent down their money. But in this case the client's got another 1.2 million, probably in properties. And so that's what's reflected in this chart here.
So we'll talk with folks about, you know, you have a house and maybe you're going to sell that and downsize. What's $600,000 worth of equity you may get, that will boost your retirement later in life if they're more squeezed, if they're more challenged.
Next screen. You know what, Jason, I’m going to have you go back if you can. Yeah I don't know that we produced this report, maybe it'll show up later, and I apologize if we did. But up near the top,above the word “assets”, the big blue word right there is “tax type”. That's an awesome report that I like because it breaks out your assets by how they are taxed. And I will use that to make recommendations on how we think our clients should allocate their assets.
So if you can move on. Okay, so here's an income tax report. You can see the total income tax, the effective income tax rate, what should stand out with this plan though is that this graph here is the amount that the client's going to have to pay in taxes. Man they've got a huge period of time here where they're not going to be paying anything in taxes. Potentially a great opportunity to do Roth conversions and maybe harvest some gains or something like that. And in this case, even though I don't think we have it in here in this sample client. Back in the planning area they had already run alternative scenarios for this client where they had done some Roth conversions.
So they probably did it right for those, that gap in time, and they can see oh what if I convert $20,000 or $50,000 or 70 or 80. You know that's modeling that we do with our clients.
So on to the next screen. Income tax, right.
Jason Lynch: So this is just merely showing the breakdown from the previous slide of the income. I've added this one. So what we're looking at, gross total income, here when we hyperlink, you can click on a blue font and that will bring us to the underlying report, which is the income. And the income is made up of earned income. Later on taxable Social Security, investment income, which means income tax is ordinary income, not necessarily pure investment income, dividends, capital gains etc. Non-taxable income, any non-taxable insurance benefits. And then the gross total income will be tied to the previous report, of course, so that just shows the detail, what makes up the gross income from the income tax report.
This next report, and I'm going to jump in. This is one of my favorite reports with an e-Money. Where it comes from, I'm going to go back to--so this column here is called regular federal income tax, which looks pretty nondescript, but by drilling down into it, we are presented with this report. This report most of you would recognize is effectively page one and two of your federal 1040. We've got our income, above the line deductions, AGI [Adjusted Gross Income].
A cool thing about e-Money is that the US tax code is directly built in, and it comprises effectively the entire internal revenue code. the exemption column does show sunset of the current tax law, which is current law. And the exemptions come back. And the below line deduction is made up generally of the standard deduction or the itemized deductions if they're applicable. Taxable income, of course.
And then another important column here is called income tax base. Income tax base is the amount of income tax as ordinary income, with subject ordinary income tax rates. Because, of course, we have capital gains tax and income tax base. So again my favorite report because it does show pages one and two of your 1040.
E-Money also has the AMT [Alternate Minimum Tax] calculations and will compute AMT. If you're subject to the credit, subject to the tax, and allow you to carry the credit forward and it does model correctly. So this huge benefit of e-Money is that the internal revenue code is built in.
Mark Zoril: Yeah, okay. One thing I'll mention for those that are optimistic that the tax rates will stay in place when they sunset. That is a switch you can flip. We don't get many requests for that [Laughter] it's there if you want to go down the path. What's the next screen? You just, yeah this is what you should talk about.
Jason Lynch: All right. So, where we're at here. This is in the advanced facts section. And in the investment area there are taxable accounts. We're able to go in on the advisor's side and adjust the realization. What the realization means is how the growth is taxed and treated income wise during the year. So for this particular account, it's showing that there's about $16,000 worth of growth this year. We can actually model and sometimes, you know, have it get close to a client's 1099. Because someone may have a lot of qualified dividends
There may be some ordinary income tax. Capital gains means it's growing without being taxed. There could be non-taxable income, and the turnover estimate will generate taxes based on how often the account is turned over, and how much activity there is. So this is can be adjusted and that will reflect better or more accurate, realistic numbers according to income being taxed. Which will float through to our income tax reports. The income distribution says how much money am I taking out of that account, pre-retirement or post.
Mark Zoril: All right. There were some questions that popped up. I think I'm going to, maybe we can deal with those at the end. So can you go on to the next--okay, oh well here's that report that I jumped the gun on. This is at the asset tax type and I guess I was thinking to myself, man I would have told Jason to do that one for sure. I really like this one a lot because it again displays how e-Money thinks you will spend your assets in retirement.
By the way, I don't think we have this one in here. There is what's called a liquidation strategy in e-Money where we can exclude certain assets from distribution if you want to do that. I have a couple clients that kind of want to do their own thing there. But anyways it's showing you, if you look at, for example this, client here. Their taxable assets, their cash and their brokerage account, e-Money has them spending their money down very quickly in retirement. And then it will go over to the tax-deferred assets, then likely to the tax free assets.So nice breakout here for somebody to see how their assets are structured.They may be kind of curious to see how all of this thing will unfold later in life, you know, based upon the assumptions.
Next screen, asset allocation. Well this one is kind of interesting. Even though these are--actually it's doing a comparison of the exact same portfolios, but it is a breakout of your portfolio, if you're interested in that kind of thing, by asset class. Assuming that we've got all your accounts labeled correctly. I'll come back to that question in a moment.
Now e-Money does do monte carlo simulation. So if you want to run that, that's done on our side. We can just go there and quickly run the numbers. So it'll give you an idea. If you're into monte carlo, we can do that.
Yeah, here's the advanced planning one, where I mentioned earlier, where we go in and we'll run these alternative scenarios. We go in here and we'll just start to edit all the various different factors in your plan. You'll see on the right the planning techniques are at a new expense, or make a change to your retirement assumptions, or remove certain things. We can do that very quickly with our clients. And that's how we can run comparisons for them.Jason did you want to comment on this one.
Jason Lynch: Yeah, so in the previous slide, Mark is showing under the plan, we can change how we claim Social Security benefits. So this is within that plan, e-Money, if we show full retirement age, e-Money will compute based on what we put in for your benefits at full retirement age. We can run modeling to claim it at earlier ages or latest ages and that's what we have on the poll down here. Note too, you can't see it too well, but the spouse, e-Money will correctly compute the spousal benefit for benefits, both when they're both alive, if there are additional spousal benefits, and then a survivor benefit if applicable. E-money correctly includes all of that. So it's a pretty good modeling technique. And you can exclude spousal benefits too if you need to.
Mark Zoril: So here we go. So this is a side by side. We run these frequently with our clients. And if you look at the top of the screen, it will have, it'll show you a little bit about that. Where it says base, oh well there you see base facts versus delay retirement. So it's doing a side by side and it's showing in this case that the client is financially healthy if they delay retirement and their Social Security. Their plan is healthier in the long run based upon all the assumptions in the plan.
Now the crummy part about that is they’ve got to work longer. So that's their trade-off though. But that's how you can show them the implications to the plan. In this case it's quite a big difference. If they want to have a lot more money to continue working longer, at least if they believe in the assumptions of the plan. So, and this is back to the screen where we developed those alternative scenarios to do comparisons.
Jason Lynch: So if I can jump in. I added this, looking at the Roth conversions. I'm going to go back to the previous slide. So in this particular one, as Mark mentioned earlier we don't have canned models--where we just dump and run--its tailored to the clients, of course, and in here, this is a Roth conversion, where with any money--and what I'm doing is showing how e-Money operates on the advisor's side--in the Roth conversion, we're going to, in this plan convert some of Frank's 401k, and by then it'll be in an IRA when he's retired, and what we would do is actually change the destination to a Roth IRA account to show conversions.
So the next tab would be the schedule here, and this is where either by trial and error or using numbers or percentages we put in the amount that's being converted each year. And it is based on the tax bracket that the client might be in. If they want to max out up to the top of the 12% bracket. You know, later the 15%, the 25%, to 28% tax bracket. And these all feed into the plan in order to show where the total assets end up. And it may be beneficial to convert it, maybe not. It depends on everything else going on in the taxpayer's life. This is just another comparison. Going back to this is delayed retirement. But we could also put in the comparing Roth conversions to the base facts.
Mark Zoril: Yeah we can really confuse you. Next screen, Jason. Yep,oh maybe we're just wrapping up here, aren't we.
Jason Lynch: Yes that looks like the end to me.
Mark Zoril: I don't know. This is something else, but there were some really good questions that were popping up here, and let's go to the questions now Jason. But I do want to, can you go back to the screen because…
Jason Lynch: Which one do you want to…
Mark Zoril: Let's leave it right there. Okay. and let's go to the questions.
Alan: Do you want, you and I want to alternate asking them. I don't think Jim is on yet.
Jason Lynch: So okay. I see one here that was communicated. Include state income tax. Most definitely. The e-Money is probably 80% to 95% accurate with state income tax laws.They can't, they don't have the ability to do a 100% accuracy on every state. But I would say-- and they estimate 80% to 95% of all state tax laws are included--when we put the state of residence or the state of taxation for the…
Mark Zoril: Yeah we will indicate the state that you live in. And it actually recognizes, for example, I think in Illinois pension benefits are not taxed. In New York, we just ran a case in New York where they understood how to handle the pension benefits there as well. So at the state level they're pretty good.
Alan: There's a couple of good questions here that I can read off. Basically ,can you save the comparison charts as pdfs during the what-if scenarios?
Mark Zoril: Yeah, yeah. We do that frequently, where we'll run the vault. In fact, if you look at the screen--that's why I wanted to have the screen up--you see where it says generate. That generate will produce a drop down, and I can send this right to the vault. And for a lot of our clients they'll ask me, “Hey, Mark, can you send us a report of what we did?” And I will just-- we do have some templates set up--and I'll just go produce it and send it right to the vault. It's actually very efficient. But I'm sorry, go ahead.
Alan: Yeah. One thing that can also be helpful. Because they conduct these meetings over Zoom you can record your interaction with Mark and Jason and save the video and then watch it at your leisure later on as well.
Mark Zoril: I’m sure, yeah, that's exciting. You can watch it over and over again, share it with your family, put it on Netflix. Can you change the spending order of the assets, IRA, then taxable? Actually, though in truth though we have recorded a lot of these for clients--and if this is a lot of data coming at you--you can slow it down and watch it again.
Can you change? Yes you can change the spending order of the assets, IRA, then taxable, then Roth. Now e-Money has a default which it goes to, but in the liquidation area we can exclude assets, or we can just change the order of them.
Alan: So okay. Here's a question about what's your role working with Rick Ferri. Oh yeah, I asked you that before. He just helped you as a consultant.
Mark Zoril: Yeah. We just hired Rick for now. Actually for now, right. I may hire him again.
Miriam: So there is another question. It is from Mark and it says for the charts that you showed related to income taxes and asset tax type, can the client pull up the same reports that when they can, and can they make changes themselves to the inputs for those reports so they can model them, or can only your team make those changes per month.
Mark Zoril: Well those aren't reports that you would change the inputs to. That's just data. So I suppose, well here's where it could change. The asset tax type report would change if somebody did Roth conversions. Like if we did Roth conversions, now on the client side what they could do, I guess, is they would have to start changing, oh I think I'm going to put more money in Roth in the future versus pre-tax. The numbers would change that way. That's not the kind of report that you model, it's the result of another activity. So I'm not sure if I'm explaining that accurately or not.
Miriam: Mark is it, did that answer your question can you save the comparison.
Mark Zoril: I think we answered that. Yes you can.
Miriam: Does e-Money have a Social Security optimization?
Mark Zoril: Well let me talk about that one. It depends on what you mean by that. I mean, you know if you live to be a hundred and you define optimization as getting the most money out of Social Security, we can run that easily enough. If you are less optimistic about your longevity then your question is not what's the best way for me to get the most like most out of Social Security, it's when can I best utilize Social Security to enjoy my life. So optimization might mean a different thing to somebody else.
But we do integrate and modify Social Security to see how it impacts people's plans. I have done plans, and I'm not kidding, where people live to be 90 or 95. They will have more money if they take Social Security at 62. They won't get more Social Security but they'll have more money because they're living on assets between the ages of 60 and 66 or 67. And a couple of my clients kind of sense that, oh I think I'll be better off. And yeah, so you do have to integrate the assets together. So it depends on what optimization means. But Social Security reviews and analysis are a pretty common part of our function, or our review with our clients.
Alan: Do you think, if I can interject, Mark, that Mike Piper's open social security calculator does that sometimes differ from what e-Money.
Mark Zoril: So yeah, I think it will. You know I haven't actually used it, but I think what he's put together is a great tool for you to run different scenarios and see how much you'll get. But you can't overlook that we're all individuals and we might have different expectations for what we want out of Social Security. So interesting, yeah, you know you may have some people that decide to take Social Security earlier because they want to be more aggressive with their assets. They just get more peace of mind by taking it early.
Alan: So yeah, okay. There's another question here from Deckard. Does tax planning include both NIIT [Net Investment Income Tax] and IRMA [Income-Related Monthly Adjustment Amount]?
Jason Lynch: It does address and compute the additional tax for NIIT. It does not compute how much medicare you would end up paying. However you know we look at that too, because look, if you hit the first or the next level of IRMA, you're paying about another $30 a month for medicare. So I would say that the e-Money does include the net investment income tax, e-Money does not really address IRMA.
Mark Zoril: Does the client have to enter in current data, or do we also have to? No you don't have to put, you do not have to put in historical data. Do you consider potential? Yes, Eric this is part of tax planning that Jason would do. I don't know if you have anything you want to add on that Jason.
Jason Lynch: Yeah. The thing with the premium tax credits is it's solely based on, or not solely, one major factor is your zip code. So between the zip code and which plan you choose. But we do look at the potential impact on the subsidies, yes, because look, if you have higher income you're going to have less of a subsidy.
Alan: Well our last April meeting, actually Jason did a nice job explaining some of those geographic differences in the ACA. And that recording is available on the Boglehead's main site. What file formats are supported for data?
Mark Zoril: Sorry but there is no-- they don't import data either--got to link it or type it in.
Jason Lynch: Yeah, And you don't have to type in your holdings. That you know, if you have even a--for a boglehead--if you've got 12 or 20 different holdings you don't have to have to enter them in unless you want to have accurate allocation reports. You can just put taxable account at Vanguard, $150,000.
Mark Zoril: Yeah, a lot of our clients do that. They we can do perfectly fine financial plans or reviews, for if we just know the totals we don't need to know the composition nicely. (Reading) There's conflicts with federal, does this planner help to balance the two?
Jason Lynch: I think I can answer that. As I mentioned e-Money does a fantastic job, I would venture even to say, almost perfect job with the federal internal revenue code. State taxes, it does a very good job. So your state may or may not be 100% accurate. I would guess it would be pretty accurate and yeah, I mean these seem to be a standard of differentiation. Capital gains penalized, I'm not sure what that means, other than paying your normal state income tax. If IRA withdrawals are taxed lower it probably would depend on your state and you know what the current laws are.
Mark Zoril: Active duty, and does e-Money have considered interest tax free. Yeah for income sources, we can label some of them as tax free and the system will treat them as tax free. So we have a fair amount of military clients that we work with.
Alan: Oh there's-- I've discovered something--there's a long question from Mark about Roth conversions. I can read this but he's asking, I've discovered that with some of the Roth conversion calculators, the amounts recommended to convert vary greatly depending upon whether the system wants to maximize yearly spending dollars available or amount of money left in your estate. For example, for your Roth conversions modeling, are you just looking at income tax levels or additional factors as well when coming up with Roth conversion recommendations.
Jason Lynch: So I'll start with the response and I'm sure Mark can add to it. But e-Money, I don't think necessarily is doing optimal comparisons. E-Money is providing the results from inputs put in. So by virtue of my goals, do I want to leave a lot of money for heirs, or do I want to spend it down. It just depends on what the individual's goals are. But there's not an optimization button that we hit to generate the answer.
Mark Zoril: Yeah, that's a common sentiment that I get across, not just Roth conversions, but oh isn't there like the optimal way to do this. Well it depends on what your attitude is. Gosh, I think Jason, you and I are working with one of our clients where, man, he was thinking about converting a lot to a Roth. I was kind of surprised at how much he was going to do. And I think he--I don't know if he ended up doing it--I think he kind of backed off when it came time to actually write the check to do that conversion. Now in the long run, if he lives a long time, it might have been optimal for him to do that. But it's freaking him out right now, and that's not optimal for his quality of life right now.
So the word optimal, in fact I did a podcast where I wanted to disband that word from our clients-- you can't use the word optimal anymore. There's just, you know, better, they're different ways of doing things, I guess is what the way I would put it.
But yeah, I will talk with clients about how they can use Roth conversions, the trade-offs that they have to make in those decisions.How do they view their lifespan. And a lot of it can vary based upon how their assets play out. And then Jason will actually go into much more detail on the actual tax cost and how much, how many, or how far up the tax bracket you want to go.
Jason Lynch: So yeah. And definitely, oh if people know exactly what their tax rate will be in the future and how much income they'll have it's a lot easier for us to provide a recommendation.
Miriam: Well one thing about Roth conversions. My son did a Roth conversion, took his old 401k from a previous employer, rolled it into Vanguard and then was converting it into a Roth. So he converted one-third one year. The taxes were not a problem because he's still in a low tax bracket. But the next year when we looked at his account It was all in the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund and it was a bear market, it's a bull market-- I'm sorry--and all he had done is make more money, he simply made more pre-tax money. And so it was almost better, he said, “Why don't just put it all over in the Roth right now, and from now on it's all after, it's non-tax money.” And which is true but how do you know? He did pay higher taxes to do it. On the other hand he's going to be working another what, 30 years before he retires. It just seems that you're looking at your instinct of what is the best thing to do.
Jason Lynch: Yeah. Well generally people that are in the beginning, middle stages of their career, if they're on an income track, they're going to make more in the future. Therefore typically now yeah, you would use Roth at the beginning when you think you'll be in lower tax brackets. Think of doctors. When they're in residency and when they're new attendings, that's probably the least amount of money that they're going to make going forward. So they probably want to be Roth, and then when they start earning much more money, they focus more on the pre-tax deductions, being in the higher tax brackets.
Mark Zoril: As an alternative, just to mention this however for those people, they may be stressed out financially,they have debts they have to pay. they don't have a lot of extra cash, so even at that low income tax level they, you know, doing a Roth conversion may just stress them out financially.
Miriam: So you do it little by little, yeah you know, little by little. All right, not surprised that there's no easy button.
Alan: So that's the questions. So we have additional questions people would like to either ask or submit via chat. One thing that could be interesting, do you have more presentation material, Mark or Jason?
Mark Zoril: I don't think so.
Alan: Because one thing that might be interesting.I imagine there are some of us that have worked with Mark, perhaps can offer a little bit of perspective. I don't know if anybody else on the Zoom call is willing to do so but I was curious about PlanVision as a do-it-yourself bogleheader and thought I would check it as a second opinion on what I was thinking about Roth conversions and retirement planning. And I found it very useful, and they offered a lot of perspectives that I hadn't thought about.
Most importantly, in my case, working mainly with Jason, ultimately finding out that I was pushing myself, my basically capital gains into a higher tax bracket because of the ratio that I have between my IRA and a taxable account. So for me it opened up a lot of different perspectives that I hadn't considered. And having just plugged stuff in on my own on other Roth conversion calculators, I missed those nuances.
So I think there's a lot of things, that even open social security calculator,Mike Piper's excellent tool, you know, it now crunches the numbers, but you have to basically bear in mind what your needs are, in your perspectives, and those are the things that maybe someday artificial intelligence will will add a dimension that's lacking now. But it's nice to have the human perspective, especially with an experienced advisor who's walked through a lot of these scenarios before and knows what to really focus on.
Mark Zoril: Yeah. I'll give an example, one is the--we showed a chart here called the planned distributions, the RMDs--and so in the boglehead world and in other podcasts, the RMDs are like you know cross for dracula or whatever.
Miriam: So they've got RMDs.
Mark Zoril: Yeah, and I will show people, and I'll say,” You know your RMDs, they're basically 1% of your net worth, that's even when you're 85. It doesn't mean you don't want to be prudent about your assets and make smart decisions. But man, I'll see people obsessing about RMDs and it's just, oh you know it's not really going to matter. Now you should still do Roth conversions and you still want to try to reduce them when you can, but it's not really going to move the needle all that much. So it does provide some relief for folks. It's like one less thing I need to worry about.
Miriam: Is it good for inheritance purposes? Are the moving into the Roths not as good as they used to be?
Mark Zoril: But it could be, I guess yes if you're asking if it's an asset that passes along tax free, yes.
Miriam: Yeah it has advantages for the legacy part of your life.
Alan: Yeah it ties into estate planning. So that's one of the factors. because you've got 10 years where it can just sit there without having--it has to still be taken out--but there's no taxes. But you can let it sit for 9.9 years and then it's taken out by the individual inheriting it at that point.
Mark Zoril: There's a question here about investment advice, and then a follow-up question which is tied in. You indicate you don't need the holdings for a plan, you know you do but given holdings well, I guess everyone can read that.
But yes we do give investment advice for our clients. Again we focus on very simple low-cost broadly diversified portfolios and we just tell them what we think they should do. It is many times driven by the numbers. And what we see, they do have the liberty to be aggressive or conservative in their plan. So we'll definitely provide comments on their investment, advice and what we think that they should do to either simplify their plan or reduce their risk. Going over the numbers is very helpful in that process.
The second question is we don't need the holdings for a plan. Well if people want us to review their mix and make recommendations and they don't link their accounts, a lot of times what they'll do is they upload their statements to the vault and we'll just look at it that way. But yeah it is helpful and depends on what our clients want. Some people--and I will ask our clients, hey do you need help with your investment advice, are you okay with it. Let's say yeah we do want some thoughts, or say no. We're pretty cool with what we've got there, so it depends on what they want.
Alan: Curious Mark, I'll-- go ahead Miriam.
Miriam: There's a question from SandyK on the chat. What are your thoughts on the bond tent strategy?
Mark Zoril: Somebody's going to be nearing retirement. Someone has to explain to me what the bond tent is.
Miriam: My understanding is the bond tent is when you start to retire, you're getting into the glide path to retirement, you put your assets that you cannot lose, that you will need for your living expenses for the next x number of years, let's say five years, three years before retirement, maybe four years three, years after. You put those assets, you set them aside in a tent that covers you. And the tent is of bonds, and you can arrange it into short-term, intermediate term bonds, or you can just buy a bond fund. You set it into there, and then you take your other assets and you move them somewhere else, and make it more, shall we say, stock heavy, more aggressive. So you have like two different portfolios.
Mark Zoril: Yes. What are my thoughts on that? If we're simply talking about the idea that you take a portion of your portfolio and get more conservative with it as you're going to live. Absolutely. I mean, so my thoughts on that is I think that's very wise to do, in fact my general comment would be, without going into specific details on actual bonds like structure, is that I would encourage people that have been financially successful, as their transitioning, to default to being more cautious than being more aggressive. Which would mean having more cash, having more bonds. I think that's a better place to arrive at the bottom. Go ahead, I'm sorry Jason.
Jason Lynch: The bond tent strategy is really a variation of looking, in my opinion, at your asset allocation. I mean that's what it is. And based on where your investments are, you look at your asset allocation, and, you know if you use a bond tent strategy, by definition, you're looking at your asset allocation and adjusting it to meet your situation.
One thing to note, the proper asset allocation, in my opinion, is that people maintain it when the market goes up, down, sideways, whatever, because if you change your asset allocation based on market performance, then you don't have a true asset allocation. Because you would have started at that asset allocation before the big run or the big drop.
Mark Zoril: There's a question here about the investment policy statement. Do you review that as part of the plan? Yeah we'll take a look at your IPS if you want us to. I mean if it's 15 pages I don't know if they're that interested in reading it. But yes, we have a lot of clients that have an excellent nice little summary of what they're doing and yeah, you know we don't we don't feel that strongly about having you know an intricate asset allocation model. So I like the Three Fund Portfolio. I do everything in a target date fund, but we're happy to provide comments to help people either simplify their portfolio, or I think also, for a lot of the bogleheads who know a lot of this stuff anyway, but maybe they need reinforcement or maybe a few comments just to provide some broad comments on their mix.
(Reading) So what about Roth RMD and Roth. Do you look at the issue of two individuals who both have substantial taxes, at some point one of them dies, you still have two RMDs, but your tax brackets are now low.
Yeah Jason has talked with our clients, you've had that conversation with several of our clients, I think, right.
Jason Lynch: Yeah. That's a great comment because you know you make your plan, you look at everything, and then boom. If you have one of the spouses die early, your RMDs now are pushing you in a much higher tax bracket and e-Money actually has what-if scenarios with an early death. So it can be run on the advisor's side and, of course, we don't look at anything in a vacuum. If you could give the information that you want to model-- but look, everything is a model because we don't know when one of us are going to die--whether that be for Roth conversions or RMDs.
Miriam: All right. Jason, you do not do the tax forms for people is that correct? You don't do their taxes, you just advise them, or lay it out?
Jason Lynch: Yeah. And I would be--I want to be clear that I don't do tax preparation. We don't provide tax advice. You know tax advice is actually a covered topic for a CPA. So we're not doing taxes. We provide tax consulting, and we provide for your tax situation. You know this is where you're at. There are a lot of people that are in between tax brackets, so we want to provide them with the information to see what makes sense in their situation, but yeah we definitely do not provide tax preparation.
Mark Zoril: Here's an interesting question. How difficult is it to master e-Money? As an advisor, as a do-it-yourselfer, I like to get my hands on the tools directly.
Well there's the upfront cost, which you might find annoying. I think it's $3,500,maybe it's $2,500 if they have a scaled down version, and I actually think you might even have to be an RIA [Registered Investment Advisor] to get it. I don't remember anymore, just so long ago that I got it. It would take a while to figure it out. You'd be on the phone. They have good support but you've been on the phone with support quite a bit. So all right.
Alan: Curious, Mark if somebody has a particularly complex situation that would ordinarily take a lot more time. Is that something they work out with you guys on a different price structure for a more detailed deep dive.
Mark Zoril: You know we have done plans for some pretty complicated situations. I think I can think of clients that had 10 or 11 businesses that had some different assets that were coming in over time. We didn't charge them anything extra for that. So I haven't really come across something yet. I mean I'm sure I will probably, or we will eventually. But you know stock options can get a little bit convoluted, but we actually encourage our clients to just enter those as income sources, generally speaking, and they work fine. So I don't know Alan, it's I guess we'll deal with that when it happens.
Jason Lynch: I have an analogy here Mark, correct me if I'm wrong, or if you don't agree, but I’ve been thinking about this. If you all remember the show Mash, you know we have triage and then you know we do surgery and it's not meatball surgery. I mean many of the surgeons do great work in the Mash unit. So we're not doing cosmetic surgery. We're not doing cosmetic plans with our clients. We're just getting them a good simple plan that makes sense for their situation.
Mark Zoril: (Reading) Any ideology. It takes someone to enter manually the information. Do you have to enter individual holdings or just a total amount?
You can enter a total amount for an account or you can link them if you want to. And you know there's more work in e-Money. It's not just your account entry. You want to enter your future expenses in e-Money. If you have pensions, maybe you have rental income, you know. So it can take somebody, depending upon the complaint, a little while to enter their information, but as I mentioned earlier a lot of our clients really like the exercise.
Alan: Alrighty, okay. Any further questions or comments folks. If not, I want to thank Miriam for her expert assistance in monitoring the chat box. I was trying to look at the participants and everything else. You had a comment Miriam, it looks like you were about to say something.
Miriam: Just if anybody wanted to contact Jason or Mark, how would they do that?
Mark Zoril: Well they could go to our website, planvisionmn.com. They could, I guess, send us an email at info planvisionmn.com.