Jennifer (Jenny) Rozelle is one of the Owners of Indiana Estate & Elder Law. She serves in a leadership role focusing on firm management, strategic growth, team development, and speaking locally and nationally on various estate and elder law topics.
Jenny obtained her bachelor’s degree in both political science and history from Butler University and a Doctor of Jurisprudence from Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law.
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This episode of the podcast is hosted by Jon Luskin, CFP®, a long-time Boglehead and financial planner. The Bogleheads are a group of like-minded individual investors who follow the general investment and business beliefs of John C. Bogle, founder and former CEO of the Vanguard Group. It is a conflict-free community where individual investors reach out and provide education, assistance, and relevant information to other investors of all experience levels at no cost. The organization supports a free forum at Bogleheads.org, and the wiki site is Bogleheads® wiki.
Since 2000, the Bogleheads have held national conferences in major cities across the country. The 2025 conference will take place in San Antonio, Texas, from October 17 to 19. In addition, local Chapters and foreign Chapters meet regularly, and new Chapters form periodically. All Bogleheads activities are coordinated by volunteers who contribute their time and talent.
This podcast is supported by the John C. Bogle Center for Financial Literacy, a non-profit organization approved by the IRS as a 501(c)(3) public charity on February 6, 2012. Your tax-deductible donation to the Bogle Center is appreciated.
Show Notes:
Bogleheads on Investing with Ryan Barrett and Mike Piper: Episode 52
Bogleheads® Live with Cameron Huddleston: Episode 34
The National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys (NAELA)
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Transcript
[00:00:06] Jon Luskin: Welcome to the 87th edition of the Bogleheads® on Investing podcast. In this episode we’re going to talk about elder law and estate planning with questions sourced from the Bogleheads® community, both from the forum and elsewhere on social media.
Answering questions is attorney Jennifer Rozelle, elder law and estate planning specialist with her own podcast on the subject, Legal Tea. I’ll link to that in the show notes for listeners to check that out.
Hello everyone, my name is Jon Luskin, returning as co-host of the Bogleheads® on Investing podcast. For today’s episode, we’re going to dive deep into some of the nuances of elder law and estate law.
If you’re unfamiliar with estate planning, be sure to check out some of our previous episodes on the topic. There’s Bogleheads® on Investing Episode 58 with Ryan Barrett and Mike Piper, and there’s also the Bogleheads® Live podcast Episode 34 with Cameron Huddleston.
This episode, as with all episodes, is brought to you by the John C. Bogle Center for Financial Literacy, a nonprofit organization that is building a world of well informed, capable and empowered investors. Visit boglecenter.net where you will find a treasure trove of information including transcripts of these podcasts.
And while there, you can make a donation to support the mission of financial literacy at boglecenter.net/donate. Lastly, we are just days away from the 2025 Bogleheads® Conference. This year’s conference will be at noontime Friday, October 17th through noontime on Sunday, October 19th. We will be at the Hyatt Regency San Antonio Riverwalk Hotel. You can find a list of speakers, the agenda, and register for this year’s conference at boglecenter.net/2025conference.
Lastly, a disclaimer. The following is for informational and entertainment purposes only. It should not be relied upon as a basis for tax, investment or legal advice. And now, the 87th episode of the Bogleheads® on Investing podcast with Jenny Rozelle.
Jenny, welcome to the Bogleheads® on Investing podcast.
[00:02:25] Jenny Rozelle: Thank you Jon. I’m so excited to be here. Hopefully we can keep time under control and not talk for five hours.
[00:02:33] Jon Luskin: Yep, absolutely. Now, Jenny, we’ve had an episode before on estate planning, but you also specialize in elder law. Tell us a little bit about the distinction between elder law and estate planning.
[00:02:43] Jenny Rozelle: That’s one of my favorite questions. The way I describe it is estate planning is typically what most people think it is. It’s wills, it’s trusts, it’s powers of attorney, it’s healthcare directives; the very standard estate documents that help people in case of incapacity or death.
What elder law brings into the conversation is helping people navigate much more intentionally issues that they may have to navigate as they age. Often it’s really two things. It’s one, either, hey, is there any way that I can structure my assets, structure my estate plan to protect my assets against long term care? So really helping people navigate what those options are, Medicaid specifically.
And then the second thing elder law attorneys often do are helping people navigate whether a guardianship process is appropriate. And that’s really when people are oftentimes starting to deal with cognitive impairment, maybe early signs, and trying to figure out are we to that level of needing a guardianship, especially if they don’t have any estate documents in place.
So if you think of elder law as a way of like, it’s very estate planning-esque, but it’s bringing in this whole intentional perspective of we’re navigating this process with our eyes on, okay, what happens if we do become incapacitated and or what happens if we do need long term care and we don’t have say, long term care insurance. So that’s the best way I always explain elder law. It really just brings in just this different perspective into the estate planning process.
[00:04:38] Jon Luskin: We got a lot of great questions beforehand from the Bogleheads® community. So thank you to everyone who did submit those questions ahead of time.
One really popular topic was solo agers had folks across different platforms ask about this very issue. Tell us what’s some guidance that you’re giving for folks that are concerned about being a solo ager in retirement.
[00:04:59] Jenny Rozelle: Well, first of all, I always appreciate this question because I can relate to this question. It’s just my husband and I, we don’t have kids.
And so as one of the people that submitted this question said, a lot of these kind of informational things about estate planning, it starts talking about your spouse and your kids and it’s kind of this very stick stereotypical setup of a family. So I can really relate to people asking this question.
And what I can say from an estate planning perspective is first and foremost when you think of kind of the different roles within an estate plan, whether it’s power of attorney, healthcare, decision maker, executor, trustee. What I would say first and foremost is none of those have to be filled with family.
Or even if we do have family, we don’t have, you know, kind of these standard people like kids to put in these roles. It can be extended family. It can be nieces, nephews, cousins, second cousins.
But if we don’t have those kind of people in our lives, and/or maybe we don’t want to put those people in these roles, I always start with human beings that we, that we know personally. So whether that be friends or friends as kids is always a great option as well.
If we still are striking out. That’s often when people are possibly considering professionals to serve in these roles, whether it be attorneys, accountants, banks, corporate fiduciaries. But those come typically with a higher price tag.
And then another thing I wanted to mention on this topic is there are some law firms out there that have something called a life care planning component to them. There are some law firms out there that have something called a life care planning component to them. You’ll find that type of field often in conjunction with a law firm that does elder law work.
But life care planning is really a, I’m going to call it a more holistic way of doing estate planning. Because it. There’s typically someone on staff at the law firm that either has a nursing background or a social work background that can really help step into people’s lives in a much more personal and proactive manner than like your traditional way of thinking about law firms and estate planning. Does that make sense?
[00:07:36] Jon Luskin: Absolutely. I know that here in California we have a thing called a professional fiduciary. And I know that varies state by state. So maybe you could talk about what that’s called in your state and how that works.
[00:07:46] Jenny Rozelle: Yeah, so a professional fiduciary is a professional who will serve in some of these roles, like power of attorney, executor, trustee. Very few of them will serve in a healthcare capacity. They tend to serve more like the financial and legal roles.
But basically what that fancy “F word” is fiduciary is they have to be working in your best interest. And so in your best interest and depending on the plan and what roles they’re in and the best interest of your beneficiaries.
And so I kind of look at when you analyze these different options as sort of like a tiered approach. Like, I always start with let’s look at family and friends first. If we strike out, try professional second.
Because they’re going to be more affordable than picking say like a bank or a financial institution, which is my third tier of like, if we’re like, I can’t find anyone around me that is willing to serve like in that professional fiduciary role. That third tier is really kind of the, the banks, the financial institutions that they often charge a pretty significant amount to serve in those roles.
And so a lot of the folks that I serve, a lot of my, you know, very traditional clients don’t really want to entertain that third tier, the banks, financial institutions. Or maybe they can’t because sometimes those banks and financial institutions have a minimum threshold in which they cannot reach.
[00:09:16] Jon Luskin: And for folks looking at tiers two and three, since they might not have friends or family who are able to serve in that role, what sort of consideration should they have in selecting those sorts of professionals?
[00:09:26] Jenny Rozelle: I’d be remiss if I didn’t start with cost. Cost is, is a really, really heavy factor when you start looking into that land.
I have found in that tier two, like when we’re talking about professionals serving in these roles, a lot of times they will serve in like an hourly standpoint, so a very traditional billing way, like they will serve in those roles in an hourly billing manner. Then when you get into tier three, when you’re talking about banks and financial institutions, oftentimes they charge a percentage of the assets as their fee.
Now keep in mind, they also tend to pull those accounts under their umbrella. So not only are they making a fee serving in these roles, they also are typically making a fee for managing the investment side. So you’re kind of getting hit twice in that land. So cost is definitely a factor.
And then I would say from a standpoint of I’ve worked on cases where I’ve seen clients put banks and financial institutions or even professionals in some of these roles and maybe the professional is retired or, or maybe they have passed away or maybe the bank has gone under or sold or purchased to another bank. So another factor is longevity.
I would probably discourage someone from, you know, possibly appointing someone maybe that’s an 80 year old attorney in this role. So there’s some more logistical factors there as well.
And then beyond that, I think it’s more of a, maybe the human feel of making sure you meet with the folks that would be serving in these roles and if you feel like they would jive well with the people that your beneficiaries down the road, if you feel confident in more of their personality more than anything, is probably another factor. I would, I would mention now you.
[00:11:28] Jon Luskin: Mentioned costs when making that decision. And as Bogleheads®, we’re a frugal group, so I’m sure we can all certainly appreciate that comment.
But that frugality also applies to investing as well. So I can’t help but wonder, is that something that can be either filtered for or put in a request in that’s to say, hey, I’m going to have this person manage my money, even they’ll manage it for 1%. Can I make sure that the person who’s managing it at least they’ll be using low cost index funds?
[00:11:57] Jenny Rozelle: Yeah, I mean you can put those kind of more specific wishes in, in your estate plan. My fear would be that them serving as executor, trustee down the road, whether or not that they would take that on. They can decline.
I have had situations, I’ve had clients where they’ve put like a bank or whoever in this role and you know, they look at the instructions that they’ve been given and they’re like, I don’t want any part of this. I’m not, I’m not going to accept appointment as your executor or as your trustee. I’m just going to decline.
And so yeah, you can absolutely put those kind of instructions in your estate plan. But from a proactive standpoint, I would ask that person or entity that you’re appointing what their thoughts are in regards to it because it’s possible that they say we may not take this appointment on if you put that in there.
[00:12:53] Jon Luskin: So it sounds like while you’re doing your search for a professional fiduciary, maybe find someone who adheres to that low cost index fund investing strategy. Any other estate planning tips for solo agers?
[00:13:04] Jenny Rozelle: Really look at the estate planning process as a relationship and not a transaction. Especially as you age and you don’t have this like natural support system around you, it will, it will behoove you to really lean on the professional team around you.
Whether it’s your financial planner, whether it’s your accountant and, and or attorney, that professional team around you will absolutely be instrumental in aging.
[00:13:35] Jon Luskin: Absolutely. I couldn’t possibly agree more. I always tell folks that financial planning is an ongoing process and it’s the same for estate planning. You want to review your plan on an ongoing basis.
The next topic that also got a ton of questions was about Medicaid. Tell us what folks need to be thinking about when it comes to Medicaid planning.
[00:13:55] Jenny Rozelle: Yeah, Medicaid. I’m not surprised. There are a lot of questions. I’m not surprised because it is so confusing. Medicaid is so confusing.
But I think Medicaid first and foremost gets really confused with Medicare. And I have jokingly said for a long time that I wish they would just change the names. It would really help me if they would change the names because they’re not even close to the same. They’re not the same at all.
Medicare and is a essentially a federal health insurance program. Medicaid has lots of different umbrellas underneath that special needs individuals, special needs families have to navigate Medicaid. Sometimes people like me help people navigate Medicaid for down the road navigating long term care and home health care.
So Medicaid in from the purpose of this conversation is a benefit that will help people pay for home health care and or long term care, whether it’s assisted living or skilled nursing. Nursing home. So that’s what I wanted to start with. The difference between Medicare and Medicaid. One huge misconception is that people think that Medicare will pay for long term care. It will not.
Medicare will cover for a max of like 100 days in like a rehabilitation setting. But you’re also not even guaranteed that 100 days. They can rip that rug from out from under you. Medicaid is the payment source that really is used to actually pay for skilled nursing, assisted living, home health care. A lot of people are concerned about how they’re going to pay for long term care in the future. That’s a huge concern. And what I always tell people is there’s really three ways you’re going to pay for long term care.
One, long term care insurance or if people are anything like most of my clients. Most of my clients don’t get long term care insurance. Whether it’s because of the cost or whether it’s because of they just can’t qualify. It’s really difficult to medically qualify for it.
So from there then we only have two options. You either self-fund some self-pay or private pay. All of those mean the same thing. Private pay for any kind of long term care in the future or Medicaid is the third payment source.
A lot of people will come to someone like me to say like okay, I don’t have long term care insurance. What are my options for protecting my assets against future long term care costs? What that is code for is instead of you, private paying Medicaid is footing the bill. That’s the difference.
And so that’s how Medicaid enters into this whole conversation is when you’re talking about long term care in the future, if we don’t have long term care insurance or choose not to get it, then we have to analyze, okay, are we wanting to not do any pre-planning, just self-fund in the future or are we going to do some pre planning and try to get qualified for Medicaid in the future to have them pay.
[00:17:17] Jon Luskin: All right, so let’s talk about that a little bit more. We had certainly some questions about what are the Medicaid planning opportunities for the wealthy. Should we put a Medicaid asset protection trust into play?
[00:17:29] Jenny Rozelle: What I always tell people when it comes to whether an asset protection trust for Medicaid makes sense is, is it just depends on the person’s goals. I’ve helped clients who have less than a million dollars do an asset protection trust to protect what they have against long term care costs. I have people that have multiple millions of dollars that have done this kind of trust. I try not to anchor to like what value of an estate this makes sense.
What I go to is there’s the three different ways to pay for long term care. Now we need to talk about if you’re okay with self-funding and private pay then this becomes a relative non issue. Right.
But if people are like well I’m interested, tell me more, what options are out there really what ends up happening with an asset protection trust for Medicaid? It’s an irrevocable, not revocable, irrevocable trust that assets go into.
Every state has what’s called a look back period. Most states are five years. If that thing is set up five years in advance and assets are in it five years in advance of any kind of Medicaid need, then if you go into a long term care community, then Medicaid is footing the bill, not you private paying.
So I know that was a little bit of a long winded answer in terms of like what kind of makes sense from like an estate value standpoint. But to me it doesn’t matter the value of the estate. It matters whether you care about self-funding and private paying or not.
Because I have clients that fall on both sides and I, I’d be remiss if I didn’t touch on, there are some people that feel that this kind of strategy of using an asset protection trust to protect assets against Medicaid long term care is unethical or immoral.
What I always tell people is they are perfectly legal, allowable options on the table. And so that’s why I really hesitate giving like a number because it’s, I have clients that fall all over the board and from there it just really depends on whether they care about, you know, possibly in the future if long term care becomes an issue. Whether you spend a lot of your money on long Term care, that’s the big, big thing is that.
[00:20:03] Jon Luskin: To speak a little bit about your unethical and a moral comment, I can’t help but think about the same thing we’re going to see in tax planning. There are income phaseouts for Roth IRA contributions. For example.
Law says, hey, if you make too much money, you can’t put money into this account that’s going to have your contributions grow tax free. But there is a backdoor Roth IRA contribution that lets you get around that. Is it unethical or immoral to use that strategy? Most advisors would argue probably not.
[00:20:33] Jenny Rozelle: Yeah, I’m so glad you brought that up because I don’t care what they pick. My job is to say here are your options on the table. From there, as long as I’ve done a good job of explaining what those options are, the pros and cons from there, that’s their decision, not mine.
I have no benefit either way. But I really, it really does, you know, frustrate me when I do hear those comments and I hear them from people that you know are perfectly fine and content with doing also irrevocable trusts for avoiding taxes, for protection against creditors. It’s just, it’s just different people, different goals, different priorities. Why are we saying like that’s okay, but this isn’t. They’re all perfectly allowable strategies that people have the option to pick from.
Something else I always tell people is that, these trusts are done from a place of like pre planning, proactive. And so many people don’t do them because they don’t have enough time to work with or they don’t even know that these kind of options are out there. And so I promise you, Medicaid and long term care win more than people that have taken the initiative to do pre planning strategies. I promise there are more people that don’t do it than that people that do. Without a doubt.
[00:22:02] Jon Luskin: There’s been some big tax law changes under the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. Does this impact the Medicaid planning in any way?
[00:22:05] Jenny Rozelle: What I’ve told a lot of people is at the end of the day, Medicaid planning and doing these kind of trusts are simply to put an option on the table for your family down the road. So let’s say we have a family that has done this asset protection trust.
They get down the road. It’s been, I don’t know, 10 years and time for them to go into some sort of long term care setting. And maybe the kids are like, you know what the, the communities around us, we really want them to go to this other one that they don’t even accept Medicaid.
Just because you have an asset protection trust doesn’t mean you have to go on Medicaid. It just putting an option on the table for you down the road. A lot of the Medicaid changes aren’t even coming for another couple years.
And so to sit here and try to say, well, here are the specific things that are going to happen would be merely guessing. And so what I’ve been telling people is we just have to see once the changes actually take place, see what the effects are and pivot.
I can’t tell you how many times that I as an elder law attorney have had to pivot because of Medicaid changes. And so it’ll just be another pivot. And you know, doing asset protection trusts for the future merely puts Medicaid as an option. That’s it.
[00:23:23] Jon Luskin: And once again, that’s why you always want to review your plan on an ongoing basis.
[00:23:29] Jenny Rozelle: Yes, yes.
[00:23:32] Jon Luskin: All right, here are some more questions about Medicaid planning. Does it matter if someone is single versus married?
[00:23:38] Jenny Rozelle: Yes, huge excellent question. Medicaid is technically a federal program, but every state has sort of interpreted those federal programs rules differently. Jon, you’re in California, I’m in Indiana. Our cost of living vastly different, Right. And so Medicaid has different rules for every state.
And I think this is why there are so many questions about Medicaid. Because not only are there different rules for every state, but if I take my state for example, in Indiana, which I would venture to say darn near every state, if not all of them have one set of rules for single individuals and a totally different set of rules for married couples. The why that they’re different is because there’s someone else involved.
[00:24:31] Jon Luskin: So maybe let’s put a bow on this section on Medicaid planning. How should folks decide if this is a strategy they should pursue for themselves?
[00:24:38] Jenny Rozelle: Work with an elder law attorney. A general estate planning attorney is not going to have the knowledge experience at helping you navigate whether Medicaid is a process appropriate as part of your estate plan? That’s not their world.
And how I explained the difference between estate and elder law that is 100% an elder law attorney’s world is helping people navigate that million dollar question of whether or not it makes sense to do asset protection against long term care. Whether it makes sense to go down a Medicaid process.
There’s an organization, it’s a national organization, it’s called national association of Elder Law Attorneys. It’s commonly informally called NAELA.
They have a fantastic directory on their website. If someone is looking for an elder law attorney in their neck of the woods, they can go to that directory, plug in their zip code, and find some nearby attorneys that do elder law work. That would be absolutely. What I would start with is making sure you are working with an attorney that does elder law.
[00:25:52] Jon Luskin: So as a financial planner, a lot of folks come to me and they want to talk about investing and taxes. And for the most part, there’s some work you can do there to make some improvements.
But the really big projects that most folks miss is going to be insurance and estate planning, not having enough or the right types of documents. What are common mistakes you see folks making as an elder law and a state attorney?
[00:26:14] Jenny Rozelle: Two things that come to mind. One, improper, inappropriate beneficiary designations. I could probably scare everyone with stories and things I’ve worked on where beneficiary designations have been outdated or whatever. So I’ve seen, I’ve seen large chunks of change go to ex-spouses.
I’ve seen large chunks of change go to parents over kids. All because a lot of people don’t realize that beneficiary designations trump what your estate plan says. And so a lot of people will think that, oh, I did my will, I did my trust, whatever. It like throws magic pixie dust on everything and just turns everything perfect. No, that’s not the case.
So one is beneficiary designations. And really making sure that you are having those beneficiary designations play nicely with your estate plan. They should very much like work in tandem, not against each other. Because when they go against each other, it’s the beneficiary designation that wins. So that’s the first thing.
The second thing I would say is one of my big bugaboos about general statements about estate planning is, do I need a will? Do I need a trust? And it just depends.
It just depends on your family dynamics, your, your family setup, your goals, what you’re trying to accomplish, your assets, the, the types, the values. I always say that not everyone needs a trust, and a lot of people benefit from trust too.
That’s probably the second thing that really came to mind is how many people out there that either don’t have an estate plan at all or, or have an estate plan that maybe isn’t appropriate for what they’re trying to accomplish. Maybe they would have been just fine with the will, but they spent all these thousands of Dollars on a trust. So making sure an estate plan is appropriate for your fact pattern, that is crucial.
[00:28:18] Jon Luskin: Let’s jump to some questions we got about asset and trust titling. We certainly got a lot in this area.
And I know not too long ago you did a great episode on your own show about the pitfalls of using a transfer on death designation as opposed to putting an asset in a trust. So can you tell us a little bit more about your thoughts on leaving assets in a trust versus not versus simply relying on a will, et cetera.
[00:28:46] Jenny Rozelle: Beneficiary designations versus a trust. It’s kind of a, it’s kind of a big question. And what I mean by this is a lot of times people will put like beneficiary designations on everything from their house to their cars to their bank accounts to their brokerage to the everything. And that’s fine. That’s a great way to make sure that we keep things out of probate. That’s why they do that.
But I’ve been doing this for about 15 years now and I’ve just seen so many situations and that beneficiary designations like that have gone wrong. So I feel like that doing that kind of operation, beneficiary designation, like everything really only works like super, super well when there’s like one beneficiary.
It should work just fine and dandy for that kind of situation. But if we have more than one beneficiary, if we have anything unique assets like that, or we, if we have any like very specific wishes and like how that beneficiary inherits, like maybe we want to stretch their inheritance out a few years because they’re not the world’s best with money.
Or maybe we have a beneficiary that has an addiction, you know, something like that going on. I’ve seen where say a house has gone to two kids.
The two kids couldn’t agree to what happened at the house with the house after their parent passed away. They went into World War three, spent way more money on lawyers than had they just done a trust plan and put one person in charge.
I think it just emphasizes how important it is to not be so laser focused with one thing. Like I’m going to put beneficiaries on everything to avoid probate, not be so laser focused on one thing and forget the risks or maybe the cons that come with that one thing. I’ve just seen a lot, lot of things go wrong.
So I’d caution people before they just beneficiary designate everything to make sure that that is truly what is appropriate for them.
[00:31:04] Jon Luskin: And jumping back to the solo agers topic, does using a trust still make sense then? Because you’re going to have that fiduciary as a successor trustee managing trust assets, or is the power of attorney given to that fiduciary going to be sufficient in that sort of scenario?
[00:31:21] Jenny Rozelle: A power of attorney will be while that person is living and the, the individual that. That would give the individual the authority to step in and help navigate legal and financial decisions.
I worked on a case several years ago. It was a solo wager. It was an elder orphan. She had lost her husband. Her husband had predeceased her. They had one child, she had predeceased her, had extended family, but very estranged from them. She appointed me as her executor and she left everything to five different charitable organizations.
So I was her executor and basically everything just flowed through her will. I got through the probate process. Ultimately things went to those five organizations. I can’t imagine putting those five organizations on all of her assets. Like, I mean, she had a house. What are you going to do a transfer on death? Deed and name five charitable organizations on the transfer on death.
Like it just, it just depends on who they want ultimately to get things. And what is the way that makes sense given efficiency, given cost, given who’s in charge. Like all of that makes are different factors that someone should analyze.
[00:32:39] Jon Luskin: Yeah, I think about a solo ager with cognitive impairment, right. So they’re still alive, but someone has to manage their money for them.
Is there any sort of benefit to a successor trustee managing their money inside a trust or is a power of attorney going to be sufficient in that situation?
[00:32:56] Jenny Rozelle: A power of attorney should be sufficient. I will try not to go on this soapbox. It should be sufficient.
But what I can tell you, practically speaking, a lot of financial institutions, a lot of banks just get really weird and really finicky about power of attorney documents. Interestingly, a lot of those same banks and financial institutions, they react better to a successor trustee.
I truly do believe having like a basic estate plan with like a power of attorney and a will is sufficient. And sometimes trusts, generally speaking, afford us more benefits than are available with a power of attorney and a will.
And that’s a, that’s one example is that so many banks and financial institutions, it’s like common sense just goes out the window when they are looking at a power of attorney. And interestingly, you don’t face those same issues when you are serving as a successor trustee.
[00:34:03] Jon Luskin: And I’ll link to that great episode that you did on your show about trust titling versus simply using a will. Folks can check that out in the show notes.
Let me ask you a unrelated question. A lot of time I’ll work with folks who get equity compensation from their employer, be it restricted stock, units, et cetera. And that is going to vest.
They’re going to be able to use the full value of that in an account usually held elsewhere from where they’re holding all their other IRA accounts, family trust, et cetera. And usually that account is going to be titled to their own name directly. It’s going to be an individual account.
If someone wants to keep that equity compensation, not sell it for diversification purposes, would it make sense to then transfer it from wherever it invests into their revocable living trust account they have elsewhere?
[00:34:53] Jenny Rozelle: Yeah. If you can’t, if they cannot put a beneficiary on it, then a nice alternative that we’ve done is we just do an assignment of that into their trust. And so that’s the paper trail needed to show that, hey, it’s we are assigning their interest, their ownership in this thing to their trust, which not only expresses their intention, but it’s the literal paper trail that’s needed to connect the dots between that, the equity compensation into the trust.
[00:35:27] Jon Luskin: Here’s an interesting question from Mike Piper, who asks about how someone should get rid of a timeshare that you don’t necessarily want to leave to your heir.
[00:35:36] Jenny Rozelle: Oh, my goodness. First of all, hi, Mike. Second of all, my goodness, timeshares are a really big thorn in my side because so often clients, beneficiaries or kids often do not want them.
Typically what I see is that the clients know that and sometimes the clients don’t even want them, but they’re, they’re stuck with them. The difficult thing about timeshares is every timeshare company is a little different in how they handle things.
But I have helped beneficiaries, kids, disclaim their interest in a timeshare. Otherwise you have to just sometimes go through the really not fun rigmarole of saying, like, hey, timeshare company, we just, we don’t want this. Like, can you just take it back?
Oftentimes that’s the executor trustee’s job. If there’s no named beneficiary on the timeshare itself, the executor trustee is tasked with navigating what to do with it. And it becomes even more difficult when no one wants it. So a lot of times beneficiaries will end up disclaiming it.
[00:36:45] Jon Luskin: Anything else you’d like to share about finding the right sort of estate attorney?
[00:36:49] Jenny Rozelle: We definitely touched on kind of the difference between estate and elder law. I think if elder law and, you know, the whole concept of like protecting assets against long term care, if that’s a goal of yours, absolutely critical you work with an elder law attorney.
Otherwise if you’re like, no, you know, I’ve saved enough, I don’t really have that concern or that goal of protecting assets against long term care, then an estate planning attorney will be totally sufficient to help.
The only other thing I wanted to mention is elder law attorneys are also very well versed in navigating special needs planning. So like I mentioned before about, you know, if we’re working with disabled or special needs beneficiaries, we really need to leave them inheritances in a very specific, intentional way so that they’re not disqualified from any of their governmental benefits that they’re on.
Elder law attorneys are very used to navigating that whole world. So that would be another reason if you do have, you know, a disabled or special needs individual in your life that you need to account for in your estate plan, I would definitely lean towards working with an elder law attorney.
[00:38:02] Jon Luskin: Thank you, Jenny. Well, we had way more questions than we had time for, so thank you for all your time today. I appreciate it.
So if you submitted a question to Jenny but didn’t get it answered, then you may have your chance to ask her at this year’s Bogleheads® Conference because Jenny we will have you once again presenting this year.
[00:38:22] Jenny Rozelle: Yeah. And I think the only appropriate response is “yee-haw”. Because isn’t it in Texas?
[00:38:28] Jon Luskin: That’s right. San Antonio this year. Hyatt Regency on the Riverwalk October 17th through 19th. Boglecenter.net/2025conference to join us there this year. That’s where you can register.
Jenny, thank you again for joining us. I can’t wait to see you at the conference. Anything else you want to leave us with before we let you go?
[00:38:50] Jenny Rozelle: I don’t think so. Thank you so much for having me on. Looking forward to San Antonio. I’ve never been to San Antonio, so be able to cross another city off the list. So. Looking forward to it. It was such a pleasure chatting with you.
[00:39:04] Jon Luskin: Wonderful. Appreciate the opportunity and I’ll see you soon.
[00:39:07] Jenny Rozelle: Yay. Yay. Yay. Yes.
[00:39:15] Jon Luskin: Thank you for listening to the 87th Bogleheads® on Investing podcast. Rick Ferri returns next month for the 88th episode.
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